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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:47 pm 
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New Kid

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:37 pm
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i'm canadian, born and raised in newfoundland, currently living in ontario.
a few thoughts on this episode...
-judge hodgman said he had been to every province except ontario, montreal, and nunavut. has he been to newfoundland? if so, what did he think of it? i very much like the thought that he has graced my home province with his presence.
-i was baptised anglican, but no longer practice any religion. my long-term partner is in school now to become a minister or priest with the united church.
-i think ontario is kind of like the america of canada. when most people think of canada, they probably think of big cities like toronto, so i'm surprised that mr. hodgman hasn't been there yet.

love the show.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:15 pm 
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Location: Vancouver BC
Leeman and his wife Rachel are American citizens who have immigrated to Toronto for school and work. They've become permanent Canadian residents, but Rachel wants to go whole hog and become citizens. Leeman finds the idea of swearing loyalty to the monarchy ideologically troubling. Should they form a united front and become citizens together? In this royal rumble, only one man can decide!

Judge John Hodgman Episode 55: Battle Royale


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:15 pm 
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I'm also from Newfoundland originally and was a little surprised at the thought of Judge Hodgman having visited.

The case really hit home because my American-born parents had a similar discussion about adopting Canadian citizenship. My father was similarly disinclined to publicly pledge loyalty to the Queen. What eventually got him over the hump were the stricter post 9/11 rules relating to permanent resident identity cards and travel documentation and a realization that if he lost these documents he might have difficulty regaining entry to Canada. Having guaranteed access to his job, family, friends, and home were more important than any hang-ups he might have had about pledging allegiance to the Queen.

I guess I'm just glad I was born in Canada so that I was able to side-step the oath entirely.

Oh, and recently they tried to crack-down on people just mouthing the words - so that might not be a good approach.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:34 am 
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Friend of the Family
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While I agree with His Honour's (note the "superfluous" u) ruling, perhaps we can get the Sun News Network (think Canada's Fox News), with the full co-operation of Citizenship and Immigration Canada, to stage another fake citizenship ceremony and Leeman can affirm a fake oath.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:00 pm 
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busdagrimes wrote:
Oh, and recently they tried to crack-down on people just mouthing the words - so that might not be a good approach.


How do they do this? Is someone standing next to a person who is taking the oath?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:25 pm 
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New Kid

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Leeman said that because of his time in Africa he did not feel right swearing an allegiance to a British monarch.

Good news, he does not have to!

Canada has its own monarchy, with its own monarch, the Queen of Canada.

Admittedly Canada's head of state is a busy lady, what with also being Queen of Australia, Queen of Tuvalu, and Queen of the United Kingdom amongst others. But she is Canada's own, and she puts Canada ahead of everyone else, including Britain. Well, except when putting Tuvalu first or while working at one of her other jobs.

The two are separate, though. Technically she is not Queen of Canada because of being the current reigning Queen of the United Kingdom. All of the monarchies she heads are constitutionally and legally distinct from each other.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:17 pm 
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I agreed with Mr. Justice's ruling, but I did think one main point was overlooked. The head of the Anglican church is also the Queen, so by supporting his wife's conversion and attending church with her from time to time, is he not subjecting himself to the queen already? Or, since he hasn't officially converted, is it the same type of thing where he can live in her realm but not identify as a subject?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:46 pm 
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I'm curious as to whether Leeman roots for the Maple Leafs or the Predators.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:49 pm 
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OhDoogs wrote:
I agreed with Mr. Justice's ruling, but I did think one main point was overlooked. The head of the Anglican church is also the Queen, so by supporting his wife's conversion and attending church with her from time to time, is he not subjecting himself to the queen already? Or, since he hasn't officially converted, is it the same type of thing where he can live in her realm but not identify as a subject?


OH SNAP!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Indeed, I loved the sound of a gavel in this episode. I laughed so hard on the bus, I must have looked like a fool indeed!

Well done, Mr. Justice. Well done indeed.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:17 pm 
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junesongprovider wrote:
Indeed, I loved the sound of a gavel in this episode. I laughed so hard on the bus, I must have looked like a fool indeed!

Well done, Mr. Justice. Well done indeed.


Yes! I was gardening in the front yard at the time and certainly freaked out a neighbor or two.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Leeman acting out measles by saying, "Ooooh my MEASLES!" killed me whilst in the McDonald's drive thru. No, drive thru lady, I am not laughing at you.

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 Post subject: I'm with Leeman!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:37 pm 
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New Kid

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A "dumb principle"? Really, Judge? That statement really irked me. You made the correct ruling, but I would hardly dismiss republicanism as "dumb". The Monarchy is an undemocratic, retrograde, and outdated institution. Most Canadians don't even realize their head of state is a Monarch, and if forced to take the same oath that naturalized Canadians do, they likely would not.

Leeman enjoys 90% of the benefits of Canadian citizenship already. He can't join the military or be a spy; he can't run for public office; he can't vote; and he can't seek consular assistance from a Canadian embassy in a foreign land. (But given how bad Canadian consular services are in disasters, he is better off with the American passport anyway.) All of this is a small price to pay for foregoing an oath of loyalty to the Queen and her heirs. Got that judge -- we are not just talking about a "frumpy Hanoverian," but her miscreant, overly-privileged brood as well. No thanks.

I too am an American ex-pat who has called Canada home for more than a decade. It is a lovely country that I have contentedly adopted as my own and in which I am raising a family. But I have yet to take that oath for the same reason as Leeman. Until Canada decides to modify the oath, as Australia has done, I will have to be satisfied with 90%.

So, Leeman, I'm with you. Bravo for sticking with a sound principled position. Oh, and busdagrimes, too bad your father trashed his principles. I think his post-911 reasoning for getting his citizenship was a bit misguided. Was Mahar Arar any safer from draconian 911 law enforcement because he was a Canadian citizen? What about Omar Khadr, who is still in Guantanamo! More practically, a few years ago I lost my PR card while traveling. When I landed in Toronto I went to Immigration, they verified my identity with a few questions about my immigration status and a scan of my valid US passport, and let me in. A bit of a hassle, but no worse than what you would get if you lost your passport. In fact, because I am a PR it is fairly easy to verify my identity.


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