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Here.

(The one from This American Life.)

I'm only halfway through it, and I've already told my blog readers to go and listen to it. Congrats, Jesse.

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Dave Lifton

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Awesome interview. It sorta reinvigorated my respect for Ira and This American Life.

Did you guys discuss the letter you received from that New York woman challenging your claim to the title of "America's Radio Sweetheart" off-air? That's the question I would have told you to ask Ira.

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Jesse, do you have a link to the Brooke Gladstone interview?

Brooke Gladstone on KQED's "Forum"

The story took an interesting twist when Jesse offered some criticism of the limits of Narrative on T.A.L.

Jesse, how did your thinking change when Ira explained why his focus on the improv group story was only interesting to him because the two situations they covered had some sort of conflict. Or are you still put off by the coverage or under-representation?

To some extent, I knew that was Ira's perspective on it, and I think the reverence in which I hold TAL and Ira is clear in the interview.

The reason I brought it up is that it's the only TAL story of which I have any personal knowledge. And I know it had real-world consequences -- Charlie, the boss of IE who is my friend, got literally hundreds of hate emails. The shading in the story benefitted the narrative, but I remain unconvinced it benefitted... I dunno.. truth. Now, TAL is not a news show, but it does frequently cover news issues, so that's an important consideraton, IMO.

Basically, I had (and have) misgivings, but I respect very few people more than Ira, and I was confident that he had opinions and had made considered decisions. So I wanted to get at how they make those kinds of decisions, and why. And why they focus on the narrative in non-fiction pieces, and this seemed like a way into it.

I didn't really plan to bring it up, but then I did.

I guess I really want to be clear that I didn't want to "get" Ira or anything, I asked because I expected he would have a good answer, and he did.

In this specific case... especially the radio story I think missed what makes IE magic. It's also what makes the Ghosts of Pasha story so sad. I think in the radio story they came off like hipsters out to trick people for their own amusement. Which is absolutely the opposite of what they're about. Charlie is really one of the nicest people I've ever met, just a really genuinely kind guy.

Anyway... I wanted to get at the broader issue, and didn't do a perfect job, but Ira had some really interesting things to say.

Gotta agree with Ira on this one. IE may have gotten 100's of hate-mail letters (which I'm not so sure they didn't deserve), but I gotta think a lot more people took it the way I did: Improv Everywhere is a great enterprise and wholly good intentioned, but this is one instance where it went pretty wrong. And that's the story. In my mind, This American Life was able to both turn people onto IE, and present a compelling story, despite the couple hundred who were completely appalled by the whole thing.

And, there is no arguing that the prank was misguided. There's really not much worse than people fake-liking something you really care about.

I am absolutely furious with the way Ira is slanting the IE story. You can even tell as he goes in depth that Ira really genuinely likes IE, but you can only tell in his subtext. He says so in very backhanded comments. He doesn't want to admit that he's a big fan in public here, because it would hurt the integrity of the originally broadcast story. He's trying to maintain the persona and angle used initially. "Happening hipsters" aren't compelling? Please. You don't need unnecessary conflict to make something compelling. TAL has great enough producers to edit an entirely enjoyable story without making IE come off as a bunch of smarmy ironists intent on being silly at others' expense.

For the record, it's important to note that the Best Gig Ever mission was not a failure at all. It went amazingly well, and it wasn't framed as a failure until several months later when two members went on public radio to cry about it. Ira also forgets to mention that the exact same interview was broadcast in the TV show and was painted in a more positive light.

Full disclosure: I'm a fairly active member of IE, and Charlie is a good friend, but I'm certain I'd have these opinions regardless. Ira is one of the greatest entertainers out there, but he is walking a very fine line between journalistic integrity and sensationalism.x

How do you judge that a prank went "amazingly well," if not taking into account the people it was done at the expense of?

I'm hesitant to get furthur into the IE issue, because I think there was so much else in the interview, and I really wanted to use IE to get to other stuff, which I think we did.

But anyway...

There are two specific issues with the radio story particularly.

1) Charlie was interviewed once for the radio story. When he was interviewed, the last he had heard from both Ghosts of Pasha and the birthday kid was that they had both had a great time. He only found out that they had issues when the story aired. The interviews were intercut in such a way that it sounds like Charlie is too thick-headed or self-satisfied to care about the fact that these folks had a bad time. Actually, they just interviewed him first and never gave him a chance to respond.

2) The TV and radio versions use the same Ghosts of Pasha interview. In the TV version, the story closes with them being asked if they would do it again if they had the chance, and they say yes, absolutely, it was amazing.

I only saw the TV version of the IE story, and I thought it seemed to look at them and their deeds in a positive way. The Ghosts of Pasha story showcased the danger in your intentions being misinterpreted, but I didn't get the impression that IE was mean spirited in any way.

When I watched that episode though, I'd already heard your interview on TSOYA so perhaps that colored my perceptions.

Never the less, it was a great interview and even though it was 45 minutes it still felt short.

The TV version of the story was much more representative of IE than the radio version.

Tim, I am judging the success based on the execution of the mission, and its immediate aftermath. The band felt great, we felt great, and everybody went home happy. When weeks later, a member of Ghosts of Pasha googled his band, and wasn't happy with what he found can't be factored into the overall execution of the stunt. At the time, it was an incredible experience for all involved, and even remained that way after the fact notated by what Jesse pointed out at how the TV piece closed. TAL frames the event as a failure in order to create a greater sense of drama and narrative, which is really what the conversation was about.

Sorry to keep this issue afloat, Jesse. It really was a tremendous interview all-around, and hearing Ira talk about the IE story, no matter my opinion on what he said, was infinitely fascinating.

Well, I think you yourself are embodying the negative side of the point Ira was making. Saying that the members went on public radio to cry about it shows contempt for the people who the mission is targeted at. Your whole tone in the first paragraph is that GoP are babies for whining and Ira is a jerk for not showing your fun.

I heard about IE through that radio episode. After the episode was over, I though IE was awesome and that it was a totally good idea. The first part of the story shows several missions, has interviews with Charlie Todd where he states the purpose/mission of the group and the tone is very supportive. They are presented as a group that is very conscientious of other's feelings that try to make magic without hurting anyone. That is why the story works because it shows how Mind Games (the theme of the episode) have unintended consequences. You are on the side of IE. If Charlie comes off as 'too thick-headed or self-satisfied to care about the fact that these folks had a bad time' well, the missions were long over by the time the interviewing happened and he hadn't seen what the response was. So maybe thats not entirely inaccurate. In fact, that that is his tone makes him much more sympathetic and relatable than the TV show where comes across a tad defensive. But that isn't the sense that I got from the radio episode anyway.
I don't think its TAL's fault that IE got a bunch of hate mail, they are doing something that not everyone is going to be on board with. I imagine that a lot of people felt like I did after the episode also, where we went to the website and thought it was awesome. They just didn't write. So far, I've seen IE through its website, TSOYA interview, TAL radio and TAL tv show and the one that made me see the magic that they are doing the best was the radio show. I think it presented them in a much better light than the TV show, where even if Ghosts of Pasha say that it was awesome at the end, the whole thing comes off as something that concerns young men and is really unimportant.